S1 EP26 | Show Me, Don’t Tell Me With Jon Sherman

Show Notes:

Focus Discussion of the Week:

When you shop, do you look for a video on the product to understand it better? Are you looking for someone to walk you through a task? If you are anything like us, you do. But what that really means is, you are looking for a story. A story of what that product or service can do for you. Or better put, the emotion of that product and service. Jon Sherman from VideoCity Productions joins Matt and Mollie to discuss the idea of “Show Me, Don’t Tell Me” in New Home Marketing.


Top Topic Of The Week:

Mollie’s taking a MasterClass with Chris Voss! The former FBI Hostage Negotiator teaches The Art of Persuasion in a series of videos that you can watch from the comfort of your home. Check it out (along with classes from instructors like Martin Scorcese and Gordon Ramsay).

Two thought leaders come together to explore all things sales and marketing from their unique perspectives. Each week, Mollie Elkman, Matt Riley, and others from Group Two dive into a focus discussion to talk about the latest trends, changes, and best practices.


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Two thought leaders come together to explore all things sales and marketing from their unique perspectives. Each week, Mollie Elkman, Matt Riley, and others from Group Two dive into a focus discussion to talk about the latest trends, changes, and best practices.

[00:00:00] Jon: The idea is, is that, you know, square footage and number of bathrooms and, and, and those features are things that are really at the filter level for which houses are acceptable for you to look at, right? But once you get there and you’re on the lot and you’re walking around or you’re looking at a floor plan, you’re deciding what you want.

The thing that’s going to, and I think you guys can again, speak better to this, the thing that’s gonna drive you to make that purchase is not those details. It’s how am I going to live here? What’s my life going to be like here? Right? It’s that story behind it, and if you’re not telling that, then you’re not helping that I or understand.

How you’re differentiating and why this, you know, this property, this community makes sense for them.

[00:01:00] Matt: Hi and welcome to building perspective with Matt Riley and Mollie Elkman. 

Mollie: We’re here to bring value to you and your team by exploring all things sales and marketing related, 

Matt: all from different perspectives. And today, our focus discussion of the week this week is show me, don’t tell me. With our guests, John Sherman from VC productions.

Mollie: But first, let’s dive into our top topics of the week. So right now I am taking a master class and it is not at a university. I’m taking it online. And this is actually, if you. Use the internet at all. You probably have seen the ads for this masterclass program where they take different people and they give a series of education sessions and we’ll Deuter sat with EMI homes, recommended one for me that he thought I would find fascinating.

And he is totally [00:02:00] right. I am loving it. So the one I’m taking right now is the masterclass with Chris Voss. So I had never heard of Christmas, but I know a lot of people definitely have. He was a former FBI hostage negotiator, so a little different from my life, but the topic of his discussion is not just negotiation.

But persuasion. And it is so fascinating to learn about how tone of voice and the words you choose, makes such a difference. I mean, we obviously know that in marketing, but in a life and death situations. So it’s like really taking the power of tone of voice and messaging to an extreme example and learning from that and these real life.


Matt: Yeah. That’s amazing. How have you, how many classes have you taken yet, or have you started it [00:03:00] yet? 

Mollie: Yeah, so I’m about halfway through. And what’s really cool about these videos is they’re short, so each, each one is about 10 or 11 minutes. So you can really go at your pace and they’re all on, you know, different subtopics where he gets into some examples or shares a story of an actual, Negotiation that took place. And I am just fascinated by it. So I’m about halfway and I have to say, I’m probably going to find another masterclass to take after this one. So if anyone is, I’m also doing these courses, let me know if there are any you love because, You know, this really showed me that Wil Duderstadt totally knows me because I am so fascinated by this.

Matt: That’s awesome. I’ll have to check it out. I love that stuff. I think you would, 

Jon: you would love 

Mollie: it. 

Matt: Yeah, I’ll have to check it out for sure. Very cool. All right, well, you know, today’s topic is something I think [00:04:00] near and dear to my heart, but I think you know, everybody as a whole. This is something that we talk about inside of our industry.

and when, when John joins us, we’re going to talk about, you know, obviously it’s the, the title is show me, don’t tell me, but what the heck is that? Well, really, we’re T we’re going to be talking about. Storytelling with video. And for me, the reason why I feel like this is such an important topic for our industry is because of scale and how people interact on what they interact with on a day to day basis when they’re buying anything.

and then when they come and buy a home, which is the single largest purchase. Both physically and emotionally that they’ll ever make. they come to us and then it’s honestly, it’s kind of a let down experience and based on what they’re used to. Right. And so what are some of the ways, this is what we’re going to talk about today is what are some of the ways that we [00:05:00] can.

Put some of that emotion, get some of that emotion across to our customers, across to our potential customers while they’re shopping online. Because there really is, we’ve taught this is this adage has been out there for a long, long time, which is, you know, buyers shop via exclusion, right? So they’re essentially going to you to essentially be able to cross you off their list.

Because now what we’re seeing is not what we’re seeing now. What is actually happening is they’re looking at everything online and the walkin traffic numbers as a whole across our industry. If you look year over year over year, the walk in traffic is down. But that’s a good thing because by consumer habits and behaviors have changed and they’re doing everything online and they’re trying to cross you off their list.

First and so how do we, instead of it being about the numbers, and John’s going to talk about some of that as well, but instead of just being all about the numbers, because not all of [00:06:00] us, not all of builders out there lead with price. I mean, they’re not the everyday price leader. And that’s not the value proposition that you want to have.

But when you look at the content that we display on our websites. We put ourselves in a position to be compared solely by price. And if you go up against someone who is leading by price, and that is their value proposition, you’re going to lose every single time. And so we’ve got to insert some emotion and let them understand and see.

What is that, what makes you special? And, really dive in and how we bring some of the emotion back. And it’s kind of some tips and tricks and some different ideas. And, you know, we go back and forth a bit on this one. just cause it’s, it’s a big, big topic that I think is so important to our industry.

Mollie: Absolutely. And I video is only going to become more and more important. And [00:07:00] I’m excited for our listeners to hear from John. 

Matt: Absolutely. All right guys. We’re going to take a quick break and then when we come back, we’re going to be back with John Sherman of VC productions and we’re going to dive into, show me, don’t tell me with video.

Thanks so much. We’ll be right back.

all right, and we are back and we’re going to dive into our focus discussion of the week this week, which is show me, don’t tell me whether they’re very special guest. John Sherman of the sea. Productions. John, welcome to the show. 

Jon: Matt, Mollie, thanks so much for having me here. This is awesome. 

Matt: Absolutely.

Well, John, why don’t we start, before we dive in to our, our [00:08:00] episode this week, why don’t you tell our audience a little bit about you and your company and what you guys do, and that’ll be a perfect lead in for what we’re going to discuss today. 

Jon: Yeah, sure. Love it. So, I’m John Sherman, owner and creative director of VC productions.

We are a video production agency focused on producing commercial corporate and event videos and films. we also work, as an outside support team for in house video production teams. So if you have an in house, a video person or a small video team, we’ll do everything from sharing ideas and tips on, T on new tech, helping support the team on bigger scale productions where you might need more crew and equipment and actually an ongoing creative direction for videos. 

Mollie: So John, tell us a little bit about how you got introduced to the home building industry. 

Jon: This seems like a very self serving, really 

Mollie: smart must have recruited you into housing.

How did that happen? 

Jon: And be like, smart doesn’t cover it. [00:09:00] Intelligent. Funny, now, so, a few, Hey Dan. So, no, so a few years ago, I want to say like six years ago now, Mollie who obviously we went to high school together, invited me to my first international builders show to cover one of her segments.

and sorta funny story there. So, you know, said you would introduce me to some of, your industry friends, which definitely happened. And I fly out to Vegas with you. And I’m filming and you know, sort of light crew. We just needed a quick shot of Mollie. So I’ve got, you know, two cameras running. I’m by myself and I’m Manning the closeup camera and all of a sudden I’m passively listening to Mollie’s presentation.

And randomly I hear my name and she goes, my friend John, for example, his favorite emoji is the poop emoji. And I’m completely defenseless. I’m sitting here holding a camera. I’ve no microphone, no, not connected the speaker. Then the whole room just looks at me and all I could do is just sort of like. [00:10:00] Wave back at every,

Matt: well, John, I don’t know what’s worse that if your favorite emoji is the poop I clean up most or, or mine is the middle finger, so I don’t know what says worse, which is worse. 

Mollie: I thought that that was part of your initiation into housing. One of the games I like to play is I like to have like a random word and try to figure out a way to get it into my talk.

So for that one, I think ahead of time, I said, John, I bet you I can say poop in my program. Weird Mollie. Like maybe don’t do that. So yeah. 

Jon: Just randomly meowing in the middle of the, I love it. You 

Mollie: did say, obviously we went to high school together, but I don’t think a lot of people who are listening would necessarily know that.

So John and I are friends from childhood, but we weren’t actually really friends. We became friends later in [00:11:00] life and now, we kinda joke about it. we were in a little bit of different groups of friends, but we. I know. I wish we were friends in high school cause you’re like the coolest person I’ve ever met.

Jon: Likewise. Thank you. 

Matt: Well, I mean I’m over. Don’t mind me everybody. I’m over here third wheel. 

Mollie: But now that you work together. 

Jon: Yeah, it’s awesome. It was a, it was cool. And, I think it was our, I mean, our office offices, I know you guys moved to that a bigger spot. Yeah. In Philly, but our offices were literally like six blocks from each other.

And yeah, it was great to connect and funny that we’re both sort of in the creative space. It’s awesome. 

Mollie: Hey. Yeah. All right, well, I know you have a million things you want to share about video and showing, not telling. And I w I do want to jump in and, and get into that content because. I know Matt is sitting there like really ready to geek out with you.

So, Matt, I know you want to ask the first question, so you go, 

Matt: sure. Why not, [00:12:00] Mollie? Thanks. Thanks for that. A Passover there. yeah. So as, as we geek out, because I am super passionate about videos. Specifically, not because it makes up more than half of what people view on the internet or not, because it’s easier to tell a story.

not because it is the preferred, the preferred way people consume content. None of those things are important whatsoever. but really it’s about. Telling a story. Right. And so, and, and conveying your message, and obviously you’re a little on the bias side when it comes to this question, but I’m going to start the interview off by kind of lobbing a softball your way, which is why do you feel like video is such an important piece of an actual strategy?

And I really stress that word strategy for really any business. 

Jon: So, yeah, I think that, I’m not going to get so far into the numbers to answer that question because I think all of that stuff’s [00:13:00] Googleable and, and it’s, and it’s clear, right? Everyone’s talking about video and talking about the importance of it.

I think from a practical perspective as a business owner, what I’m seeing with a lot of our clients across industries is that you can control the duration of a message you can control, and, and you can. And which I think is the most important thing and story telling is you can make somebody feel something and you have a lot more, I think, control over that with video.

You can add effects, music, the way you present the story in a way that transcends a lot of the other mediums that you can use, right? Like, I can write something and I can, and there’s a million ways you could interpret that as you read it. but if I produce a video that has a certain type of song in a certain field and, and is told a certain way.

A lot of people are, I think going to see that from a more similar perspective, which gives the person producing that content more control, and if they execute correctly, they’re going to see more results. 

Matt: Yeah, I completely agree with that and [00:14:00] I think that it’s also makes it easier. Because video is engaging all the senses, right.

And at one time, and I think it video makes it easier to get across the emotion that we want to do, because that’s, you know, and that’s what this is with anything. And I think that this is what. You bring a ton of value and knowledge with is because you, you don’t focus on housing, right? You’re, you’re doing things across multiple industries, across, you know, and delivering that story.

But when you get into something that’s, that’s such a high dollar investment, like a house, it can become and does become a product focused endeavor right there. It’s the lot. It’s the, the house itself, it’s the PA, you know, the home, the square footage, the room dimensions. It’s all just, this can be this binary thing that [00:15:00] happens, and when we do that and we don’t put the emotion into it, it you, it becomes a race to the bottom, right?

Then it’s all about price. And I think that’s what video brings to the table is the ability to convey emotion that really can’t be conveyed in any other 

Jon: medium. Agreed, and I think that so three parts, the first thing is, Oh, sorry. Hey Mollie.

Mollie: No, I did want to just add something because I think it’s important because not all video is created equal and what happens is we think, Oh, just getting a video up there is, is good enough. And it’s not in taking, you know, video content. Just like taking photos with your iPhone and thinking that you, here you are with.

The largest purchase that someone makes. And thinking that’s a sufficient way to be a part of using video in your marketing is really a naive perspective. And I think John, with you, one of the things you know, you [00:16:00] identify as a creative storyteller and when we do have a product here in housing, but the product is really a lifestyle.

So when you use video and storytelling in a creative way, you’re able to really. Paint a picture that goes way beyond the product, 

Jon: right? And you guys could speak better to this, right? But the idea is, is that, you know, square footage and number of bathrooms and, and, and those features are things that are really at the filter level for which houses are acceptable for you to look at, right?

But once you get there and you’re on the lot, and you’re walking around, or you’re looking at a floor plan, you’re deciding what you. One, the thing that’s gonna and I think you guys could again, speak better to this. The thing that’s going to drive you to make that purchase is not those details. It’s how am I going to live here?

What’s my life going to be like here? Right? It’s that story behind it, and if you’re not telling that, then you’re not helping that buyer understand how you’re [00:17:00] differentiating and why this, you know, this property, this community makes sense for them. 

Matt: I think that what you just said, is, is tweetable.

Like one of the things, the, what you just said, I was literally writing it down cause I thought it was, that was an amazing little quote. And I think we lose sight of this, which is the number of bedrooms, bathrooms, square footage, garage parking spaces. you know, how many stories the home is. Those are all filterable items, meaning that you’re literally going, okay, I want to see a list of homes that meet this criteria.

And that’s what those things are. They’re just, they’re just simply criteria, not what they’re actually purchasing. I think that’s a huge, huge takeaway right there. 

Jon: No, I appreciate, I appreciate that. And I think that that’s, so that brings you to. You know, what are the things that are going to differentiate, right?

What are, and I think that they’re specific to the buyer and you have to tune into that as [00:18:00] a salesperson, I imagine, right? To figure out specifically what they’re looking for. but then on a bigger level, you can demonstrate to a broader group of people through video, what that lifestyle will be like, what it’s gonna feel like to live there, to be a part of that community.

And that I think is where you’re making the sale at that point. 

Mollie: Yeah, I, I keep coming back to our topic and our description of the program, which is show me, don’t tell me. And that is a very, you know, when I, before we got on here, I joked about, you know, our high school literature teacher, like, Oh, is that coming from 11th grade, mr Edward’s class?

Because. In the creative world. That is a really big theme. It’s, you know, don’t tell me all the things that are in the home, show me and let me experience it. And, and that’s really what you’re talking about here. 

Jon: Yeah. And that, and that’s what video lends itself to. Right. And at that point, once, once we get over that hurdle, that hump of understanding.

[00:19:00] What our objective is with video and what it does better. Then, you know, to your point, Mollie, not all video is created equal. So why and how, how do we elevate the video that we’re making so that it checks the boxes for showing and presenting something in a meaningful way? And, and how do we make sure that it’s something that.

It’s also the story that we want to tell. I think that, especially in the, in my world, in video, I, I think if you, if you Google video companies 11 out of 10 claim to be storytellers, like it’s just that, it’s, it’s the buzzword in the industry. It’s, it’s what everybody’s talking about, right? but the reality is, is that not.

Not all videos are created equal, but not all stories are created equal. And not all stories make sense for your brand. one of the things that, Matt and I talked about before we even when we were talking about doing this podcast, was looking at the Superbowl ads. And I actually listened to your guys’ last podcast, where you talked about your favorite Superbowl ads.

And [00:20:00] one of the ones I wanted to highlight that I thought was the funniest ad, but also possibly the least effective ad was the Jason Momoa ad. If you guys remember that, where Jason Momoa comes home from. So it was ridiculous, and it was one of my favorites because from a, from a creative perspective, I thought it was really well done.

In funny, I thought that the effects were awesome. I thought it was really, you know, the way he’s dismembering his own arms and then sort of like turning into this like, you know, shell of a human of himself. It was really funny 

Mollie: and it was really what it was for. 

Jon: Right? That’s why I called it the Jason Momo ad because it was the rocket mortgage, but I couldn’t remember that.

And I had to Google it last night. So, and the reason for that is because the connection back to the rocket mortgage brands was so, it was such a tangent. It was like feel at home rocket mortgage. And it was what, like, I get it, you guys. Mortgages are for homes, but that it was too far of a disconnect.

Whereas, you know, for example, the Jeep commercial or the [00:21:00] Google commercial, they tied immediately back to the value prop for the company or a pillar. Right. I was talking about this, that you don’t have to do a branding videos, a branding video, but then you could do an aspect of your company, like one aspect that you really want to target and that could tie back to that.

And I think that those videos, those commercials did a much better job of doing something clever that was relevant to their brand. and that’s why they’re more effective. 

Mollie: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I do think that people remember that spot and even though they don’t know what it was for, it is, it is harder.

I mean, when you have a product like a Jeep, that is, you have like a tangible product, whereas more like a mortgage, like how do you make that exciting and different? So, Eve, I bet it will still be beneficial for them. I don’t think it will be a waste for them because they were going for just over the top.

Ridiculous, essentially. So people would share it and they would get it out there more. But, but I totally agree with you. they, you know, it’s, it’s very hard to. [00:22:00] Connected back when there isn’t a tangible, one of the things that we’re so lucky in this industry is like we are selling the most important product is where someone lives their lives.

So we have no reason to not be good storytellers because we are not just talking about something that’s hard to connect with. We are talking about. Something that is a basic, fundamental human need. So when you’re talking about a human need, you can go really deep with how you tell that story. You can go in so many different directions because every single person can relate to what the actual product is.

Jon: Yeah, agreed. And you’ve got a tangible product to show  absolutely. Something you can. So it really lends itself to, to video production for sure. 

Matt: Yeah. And so in John, I think that you bring a really interesting perspective to these things because you do crossover into so many different industries from, you know, [00:23:00] obviously with housing stuff, but automotive and just there’s, there’s a whole different.

Angle that when you, when you’re telling a story via video, that I think that our listeners could really take away from examples of some things of how you’ve told help tell a story, help told a brand story across other. Other sectors. So what, so then as we dive into kind of how we actually tell that story through video, what are some different things that you’ve seen that have been really successful?

And obviously it’s depends. It depends on the industry and what the actual desired outcome is. Because in the, in the, Rocket mortgage example. I personally think Jason Momoa comes out more ahead than rocket mortgage does, right? Because people were, like you said, I don’t even remember what the commercials for.

and so, but across crossing other industries, what are some examples that you’ve seen that work really well to help [00:24:00] get that emotion across. 

Jon: Yeah. So I think that I’m going to try to, as I go through these, I, I, I selected a few examples across different industries, and I think there’s, there’s two aspects to look at it.

There’s a telling the right story, which we’ve been talking about, and telling an effective story that makes, that is memorable, that makes people feel something and ultimately results in a call to action. Right? And then there’s also the strategy of looking at. Where that video’s going to be, if that makes sense.

So we’ve sort of just been looking at these Superbowl ads and talking about them, and that’s a certain platform that, you know, for rocket mortgage, it may just make sense. You’re spending $5 million for a spot. I just want everyone talking about the spot. I don’t even care if they initially remember me.

Right. We were. Cranking off five mil on this. 

Mollie: We did also mention that name at least five times already on this podcast. 

Jon: Well-played rocket mortgage check mate. and Jason Momoa. so I think that, so I think that thinking about where there’s. [00:25:00] and we’ll talk about this more, but the idea that if you’re making it, I’ll talk to people a lot about where is this video going?

And so if it’s just, you know, usually the answer is on our website or out in social. but it matters if it’s going out in social and you want it to be a 15 second piece. if it’s something that’s a sales tool for somebody who’s sitting next to someone and watching a video, if you’ve ever done that before, I do that all the time.

Watching a two minute video next to someone, especially in like a pitch meeting is super awkward. It feels like you, just like you were having a conversation and all of a sudden we’re at the movies together. So, you know, I’ve, I’ve advised for clients that have like maybe a two minute branding film to cut that down into short 15 second bits for those types of segments.

But anyway, I digress. So let’s talk about some content strategies and things that we’ve done. one of the things I, I. And I’ll share these links with you guys after, but we have the opportunity to work with Subaru, and they were producing a campaign. Now, this was targeted not to consumers, but to retailers.

So these are people that are the, you know, that sell Subarus and are fixing Subaru’s, right. The service [00:26:00] centers. And they wanted to get them to pick up. SA, texting software so that they would be able to communicate via text with the consumer. Right? And they tried doing explainer videos, talking about metrics and results, and those were effective.

but they wanted something that was a little bit more catchy and a little bit more eye catching and a little bit more memorable. So we created these sort of fun videos. It’s a series of three that focused on different value props or as pillars of the benefits of having the texting service. So one is the benefit of advanced client communication.

The next one was the benefit of the profitability for your dealership. And the next was the benefit of having cloud storage, which are all three aspects of bringing texting into your business. and. How we pivoted and it was we, we found the paradigm, which was actually borrowed from the Keurig commercials.

I don’t know if you saw this, but they did this bit where you pop a Keurig K cup. Into a machine, they would close it down and go in the time it takes to brew this cup of [00:27:00] coffee, we’re going to tell you why our beans are the best. And it was this really fast paced film. And he’d fly to, you know, Columbia, and they, you’d need, you know, Dave and Dave has a dog named Steve, and Steve has a litter of five puppies.

And here’s the, you know, and it was really fast paced and fun. So we borrowed that and created this in the time it’s going to take. Samantha, to take the perfect selfie, which ended up being played by Jess from our office. which was kinda funny. we’re going to show you why texting service is going to greatly enhance your business, right.

And we, and so when you see the videos, it’s really helpful, but ultimately they use that. As an outbound marketing piece, they were sending those as emails to potential retailers. They also played it at a launch convention and got a round of applause on because they were funny and punchy and also explain the service.

So, I really liked those. I think those were, those were different and cool and a great way to sort of present a lifestyle piece in a sort of scripted narrative and get away from the testimonial documentary style. 

Mollie: One of the things that I love [00:28:00] about what you just shared is really where inspiration comes from.

So, you know, you’re talking about Keurig, which is a totally different product, and you saw something in the strategy of how they execute it and how they would tell their story. You use the term borrowed, but you didn’t really borrow anything from them. It just. Gave you the idea of how to take that strategic storytelling approach and apply it to another industry.

And I think one of the things in housing where we aren’t as good at is, is looking outside of housing and seeing how that. Approach can apply to our industry. And you know, for years people would say a retail mindset, a retail mindset. And we do talk about other industries, but I don’t know that we bring it to life the way that we could.

Instead, we’re trying to reinvent, reinvent when really inspiration is all around us. 

Jon: That’s a great point. And [00:29:00] also in our industry, a lot of inspiration comes around. Coffee. Oh, there you go. Pots of coffee, Kiera and K cups. There you go. The leftover coffee in your cup in the morning. Just wherever coffee is pretty much is where 

Matt: coffee is such a big part of so many lives.

Right? It’s hard to not 

Mollie: have. John, do you want to meet for coffee later? 

Jon: Yes. Let’s, let’s do it right now. Actually, I think I could go for a cup sowed 

Matt: over. 

Jon: Right. the, so the next thing I want to talk about, is a little bit of an industry shift, which was obviously, something we wanted to bring to the table here.

So Ryan’s story is this video we did. So there’s an organization, they have a bunch of different branches throughout the country. There’s a Philly branch called the Philly friendship circle, and they’re an organization that pairs up kids with neuro-typical teens with kids with special needs to be friends.

That’s their only mission, is to create a more welcoming, inclusive, and social environment for kids with special needs. And we’ve been working with them for [00:30:00] several years now, helping them fundraise every year for their gala. And so we’ll produce a series of videos that are designed to be part of the event and help, with that evening for fundraising, and then also be repurposed and social media and other marketing campaigns throughout the year.

and every year we do something a little different. One year we literally created a fake. Instagram and social media influencer, and had her, you know, sort of travel to friendship circle and introduced. And literally people after the event were asking for her handle to follow her on Instagram, not realizing that she’s 

Matt: not real.


Jon: and so this year we worked and I thought this was just a cool story and it sort of fits with what we do. We profile this boy Ryan, who had discovered his passion for photography, and has an Instagram account. And was sharing, these aren’t photos and, and talked about how friendship circle helped him, sort of find what works for him.

Right. And find his passion. It was really cool. It was a cool story. We got to interview his parents and, and we talked [00:31:00] about his art, right? And Ryan’s. You know, Ryan’s challenge is sort of connecting with people. and, and, and so this is a way that he was able to do that. The story was really cool to tell.

And, and to put this in context too, when we’re talking about fundraising, I mean, they’re trying to raise, you know, in certain years, as much as 400,000 from this event, right? So it’s a lot of money at stake. And, and, and talking to, the head of friendship circle. Recently actually, which is what made me want to talk about this, is she said, when we have our event, our gala, these, all these pieces need to come together, but the video is the thing that if it works in the room, people are going to open their wallets up.

It’s because it’s the thing that really makes them feel, and it’s the thing we have the most control over in order to help them feel and get a call to action. And so it’s a lot of pressure on us. And, and obviously we embrace it and, and we’re so thankful that we get to work with them. and I really love the work they do.

But this is another example, right, of the impact you can have [00:32:00] when you tell a story that fits your brand has, makes people feel something. And a lot of times it’ll. Call to action, right? Make them do something. 

Mollie: One of the things I love about that is that we eat in at group two. We talk a lot about brand personification, and that is really like making it more personal and making it a story.

And that’s really what you did by telling Ryan’s story is instead of it being directly just talking about friendship circle, it’s about. A very specific person in story and that’s, that really brought it to life. And I, I think there is a lot that we can learn in housing about that specific example is really, really making it personal and connecting, down to an individual.

And a lot of builders are, a lot of companies can actually, do a. Brand personification exercise, as a team building activity. Or even in this case, it’s, you were [00:33:00] telling a story of a real person, but you actually can go through an exercise and, do a fictitious person that you kind of talk about of who this person is and who would represent our brand and our story.

So I really love that example. And I also love, I’m going to quote you on this later video is the thing. I love that. Did you realize, you said, I love, just love that videos? The thing 

Jon: I, I don’t realize I said that, but I think I’m going to start making tee shirts. it also sounds 

Mollie: like you need to add the poop emoji video is 

Jon: really eloquent.

John Sherman, the most eloquent person in the world said that video is the thing. And then got a sandwich. 

Matt: It’s a coffee 

Jon: and some coffee. 

Mollie: That’s awesome. Great. I think our audience is going to really enjoy looking at those examples. 

Jon: Yeah. The, so speaking of enjoying the examples, I did put in a funny one, which I thought in [00:34:00] retrospect, of course I’m going to like talk.

Every video we make, we dislike it. Like a week after we launch it. This just sort of, but we did this video that I thought was, was a pretty cool story. divestive is a, a V company focused specifically on pharmaceutical events. So big pharma events, they do the AB for it. And they had this rare opportunity where during one of the breaks, the pharma company that was putting on this event wanted to let the vendors, and maybe it was a sponsorship opportunity, play a short video about themselves.

And instead of saying, hi, I’m Tom, and I’ve been doing a V for a long time and we’re good at it, and you should hire us. They wanted to do something that was sort of collaborating. So we made a pharma parody video about. A VA. Right? And so we came up with this disease called chronic UAV, S a which is not a real disease.

Well, actually, if you’ve ever thrown in a event and had bad AB production, you might think it is a real disease. underqualified a V support. Right? And so [00:35:00] their whole thing is, when you call us, we’re not just going to take a list down of w. You need six mics, you need one screen. We’re going to help advise and provide consultation on making your event best.

So we made up this disease and we, you know, opened it like your normal pharma parody, right? Where, you know, farm a video where it’s like, do you feel depressed? Are you tired and sick all the time? Maybe you have chronic UABs, the cure is diabetic. And so when you watch the video, it’s pretty clever. And, they actually got a standing ovation at this pharma conference.

People like, stop what they were doing during the networking and watch this thing and laughed and it was really effective for them. and again, it was funny. But more importantly, the story made sense to the target audience. The story made sense and tied back appropriately to the brand, and that’s why I think ultimately it was successful and didn’t fall into a, but we’ll call it Jason Momoa syndrome.

Matt: Well, funny enough you say that like, I actually was looking at the videos you were talking about in this [00:36:00] chronic UAV S and we actually just did an episode about, we made up a fake term called GMs good markets syndrome. 

Jon: I was doing the math in my head, Matt, and I was going. Is Jason Momoa syndrome the same as GMs is like, no, that’s a J moving on, right?

Matt: Yeah. So as a builder, when I was a builder back in the day, you know, it was one of the things that we focused on was trying to make sure that we didn’t lose sight of the basics, right. Like execution on the basics and not letting that things are going good and the wind at your sails, let you forget about.

Actually executing on the things that you need to focus on. and, and so we came up with a term called GMs good market syndrome, like, don’t get good markets syndrome. And so it was funny, we wrote a blog about it and it was like, you know, common symptoms are, my sales are too good. I don’t need to focus on that.

You know, Dustin, your eyes from your competitors leaving you, you know, burning rubber, leaving you in the dust, you know, it was just like very, very similar thing. So [00:37:00] I knew, I liked you. For a reason. 

Jon: I got to tell you, this will be co the compliment section of the go. I wanted to say, I did read that article and I listened to the last podcast from you guys where you talked about it.

And I think that, it’s incredibly valuable obviously to builders and there’s, and their specific content about the sort of objections and things that they say. But as a business owner, I think it was also valuable for me. Like I was taken away stuff from and thinking about, you know, best practices from.

But you know, our side of things that you, you don’t do as much when you know you’re busy and, and, and, you know, just trying to keep up with the work. And so I thought that was a really valuable article. A shameless plug. Matt Ryan will take it. G M. S that’s my, that’s my NPR voice. And 

Matt: as long as we don’t get into peach sweaty, we’re okay.


Jon: Those do sound. Yeah. All right. I, I would, I would easily go on that [00:38:00] tangent, but it has to their podcasts like happily. so yeah, those were some of the samples that, that I brought. And obviously we have a whole slew of different ones that we’ve done and we’ve done work with builders. I think what’s been really cool is, you know, we, we talked about my first international builders show.

that, you know, Mollie, you brought me to, and, and since then and the introductions you’ve made, have really fostered relationships with a lot of the people in the building industry that focus on helping builders. And so it’s been really cool for me. You know, again, sort of playing off this, the GMs blog article that as a, I think, I think the building industry, and you guys are very hard on yourself about.

You know, we’re not keeping up with some of the trends that other people are doing and things like that, but I think there’s a lot of conversation that’s happening that I’ve seen over the last five, six years that is sort of changing that. And there’s stuff that I walk away from the, from IBS. It’s still such a weird word to me.

Like I immediately IBS, like can they, can they fix that? Anyway? 

Mollie: So you really walk away from IBM, 

Jon: right. I wish I could, but I need divestive from a pharma conference [00:39:00] to fix my IBS. so, you know, I walk away from the builders show every year and I, I’ve learned something new that is the, the, the internal conversation is directed to the building community.

so I think that that’s really cool. And, and see, and having mostly worked with. You know, let’s say producing content, for the, you know, marketing the seminar that you’re going to be giving Mollie, or, you know, or, or the talk you’re going to be giving that, like, there’s a lot of perspective that you get from that.

Right. And it’s helped us in the, in the occasions where we have worked with builders to, guide them with the video content of that previous thing. For sure. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I saw this example, and this is, is we’re talking about different ways that, you know, as a builder, a lot of times we think, well, you know, like, what am I gonna take?

What am I going to video? Like, what kind of content am I going to create? And it’s one of those we can’t see the forest. Through the trees kind of thing, because we’re in it every single day and we lose sight that, [00:40:00] and I shouldn’t say we lose sight sometimes. It’s just easy to forget that when someone’s making the size of a purchase, it’s such a big deal for them.

I mean, taking out the consideration of money moving it in itself is a gigantic pain. And, you know, it’s, it’s such a big deal and there’s so many pieces that, that. People want to learn about, and I saw this over the weekend and I was actually shooting it out to a couple different builders, or it had just kind of come to mind, on this, but I was looking at, it’s such a simple thing.

I was looking at a website and they were talking about some, it was like a $20 accessory on, on a piece of art for a camera. And. I was, they had a video and I started go at the bottom of the page, and that’s sort of going through all their accessory pages, like even the small stuff to the expensive stuff.

But there was somebody on, you know, it was a third on this side. In this particular section, it was only like 30 seconds, but it was somebody there talking about this particular, [00:41:00] it was like a wifi base that the camera can sit into. And he was talking about how thoughtful. That this design was and why they actually designed it.

And what we did is we had this in mind when we designed this, and it was something that, it made me think of a word that, or a sentence that Mollie said in a meeting we had internally like a week ago or so. And it was like, you know, builders. Think through these things so thoughtfully. When were the, even the products, the windows, the, you know, even the most minute little details they can be thought of so thoughtfully and what a great, my thought was, what a great opportunity to break down a home or a floor plan or a community and have.

The owner or someone that’s going to talk through and say, Hey, really hope you, you know, enjoy viewing the Juniper floor plan. And I want to tell you a little bit about why we designed it and what [00:42:00] made us kind of come together with this plan because it was really thoughtful and design. When we, when we were thinking about who the customer was that was going to be living in this home.

And to me that spoke volumes like, gosh, what a, what a great idea. And that also translates into if I’m going to buy, if I’m going to have that kind of experience when I’m purchasing something for $20, right? Then we get into what kind of experience is someone going to expect when they’re spending half a million.

Jon: Yeah, for sure. And, and you know, here’s another tee shirt, right? If it’s good enough for Apple, it’s good enough for you. Every single phone that they put out, there’s a guy in a chair with a white background and he,

no one told me that was coming. I was awesome. 

Matt: I’m sitting here, I’ve got [00:43:00] the controls, John, I’ve got the buttons ready to go. 

Jon: if you, and that Arnold Schwarzenegger board, that’s like, they get to the choppa, like, I really liked that included in this podcast. I will. So yeah, no, every time they put out a new phone and even like, I know the 11 pro, they did actually some cool stuff and there’s like the three cameras or whatever, but like, for like six phones in a row, it was the same phone and they were just like.

When we invented the new Apple phone, we thoughtfully, it’s like you just put out the same product, but the bottom line is that it’s really effective and people are expecting those things. And you know, an iPhone is, you know, you know, for a fully decked out one is what, like 1200 bucks or something like that and you’re going to pay it over, you know, 50 bucks a month.

What’s your, what’s your mortgage going to look like? You know? And so to take that time to really explain that thoughtfulness, yeah, I think that’s invaluable. And, and again, you have an example where it’s really, it’s being used everywhere, right? so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. I, I [00:44:00] think that one thing I’ll say from the empathetic side is that, and this is true for any business, I find that anytime we’ve interviewed somebody and you ask them to talk about themselves.

it’s pretty difficult, right? You, you, you want to have your elevator pitch like scripted and written down, even before I hopped on this podcast with you guys. Honestly, I said the only thing I really, really prepped other than pulling some links and, and, and, and those pieces was just, how are you gonna hire when they ask you what do you do?

What are you going to say? Right? And, and that’s, I think, generally hard across businesses. But beyond that. It is, there really is no excuse because there’s so many opportunities to generate content. I think for builders and, and you can go in so many different directions in this floor plan idea is a great one, and definitely one of them.

Matt: Yeah, no, I just think it’s about, like we said at the top of the segment, it w it’s, it’s about conveying emotion in a way that takes out what, and to pull a [00:45:00] John Sherman quote out of the bag is the other things. The, the bedroom count, the bathroom count, the square footage, those are filled. That’s a filter.

That’s just, all right. I’m not going to look at anything or consider anything that doesn’t have these things. These are just. The thing’s video. The video is what’s going to convey the emotion of a thoughtful design of a phone. You know, whether you’ve got Johnny ive, and I would love to, I would love to imagine that in that Apple segment that

They sat down and recorded it one time and all Johnny ive has to do is come back in and sit down and say the name of the new device, and then they rerun the whole video and the commercials time

Jon: AIDS. 

Matt: All right, Johnny, we’re going to sit down. I’m, we’re going to do a one segment where we’re going to sit down and we’re going to, you’re going to name off the next seven iPhones and then you’re done for the next seven years. 

Jon: Could we get a white tee shirt, a white v-neck t-shirt? Please? The beats on it.

We just need one.

[00:46:00] Matt: But getting out of the filters and, or the sort features and getting into the storytelling and, and creating and delivering emotion. because I’ve, I’ve said this before, it’s the definition of a sale is the transfer of a, one of emotion from one person to the next. And so. It’s not necessarily press here, you know, press hard.

There’s three copies. that’s not necessarily the sale. The sale is the transfer of the emotion. It’s taking someone else’s belief and accepting it. It’s the, it’s the best thing for you or, or not, right? It can. It can absolutely work against you if your message isn’t dialed in and you’re not conveying.

Jon: Right. Thank you. First of all, that’s an, that’s another quotable for sure. The transfer emotion. That’s awesome. and, I’m going to be borrowing that. 

Matt: I, 

Jon: I think that, I think that one of the question, so here’s like a little. I guess it, it’ll, [00:47:00] it’ll double as a tip. But whenever I’m doing an interview with somebody, let’s say we’re doing a lifestyle testimonial, right?

So we’re sitting down, with a, you know, the business owner and we’re at, or, or maybe a customer, and we’re asking them questions about. Trying to create a video about how great the company is, right? That they worked with. One of the things I’ll ask, so for example, if it was about podcasts and I was saying, you know what?

What do you think of podcasts? And they would say that podcasts are great and, and you know, you should be on them and they’re awesome and do them with Matt and Mollie cause it’s a lot of fun. What I would, what I always follow up that question is, can you tell me an anecdote or a story of a time when, right, you were on a podcast or whatever because nine times out of 10 in the video.

I’m going to use two seconds of the line that tees up podcasts are great, and then I’m going to fill it with the example, which will be a story, because at the end of the day, the story is the thing that’s more relatable, more memorable. And you can picture yourself, right? You can, you can put yourself in that situation and they’re, they’re more effective.

So as a tip there, right. [00:48:00] You know. Focus on the, on even the story within the story that’s going to help bring up the value prop that you, you know, that, that you want to demonstrate. So, you know, if you’re talking about metrics of growth for a builder, right? You don’t just say like, how did your numbers grow?

You, you would ask like, you know, you want to hear, we were sitting in the meeting and you know, Dave pulled it up and we couldn’t believe it. We had. Double their number, like even that is more compelling, right? Than just our numbers went up by double, right? So things like that that you can bring to your production, which is going to, just get a more emotive and more effective, way of telling the information.

Right. and, and tying into that, I think that polling your salespeople. I, I imagine every single sales person, they could go down the list of every sale they’ve made, and there’s a story behind that purchase, right? These, these were skiers that moved to our area, and then, you know, whatever it is, and they needed [00:49:00] somewhere to store their skis.

I don’t know, I’m just making this stuff up, but that’s a story, right? And I can’t imagine there’s ever a sale. I would venture to say ever a sale where they just walk in and they’re like, I’m, I’m Susan. This is. You know, this is Dave and here’s our deposit and we’re taking the home and shake hands and walk away and we’re not going to talk about any small talk and there’s nothing around this, right?

Like there’s always some story there. What the selection process was like for this couple, and focus on that. What, you know, what the build time was like for them as they were waiting. And maybe you have some process for helping people through that, you know, whatever those things are. every single one of those sales is a story and you can leverage that to.

Mollie: That’s great. And one final thing that I do want to say, as we’re talking about the importance of video and storytelling and all of this is the research shows that this is not going away in housing. as we’re starting to learn more and more about the next generation, [00:50:00] gen Z, which will be the next generation to come into housing, they are influenced more by video content.

Then anyone, before. So this is going to become more and more a part of the conversation and the way that, that builders apply this to their websites, their product, their social media, their marketing overall is just going to continue to be a really important, part of the discussion. 

Matt: Oh, I totally agree.

Totally agree. And so you’ve got to get prepared because video is the thing. Right 

Mollie: here is the thing, 

Matt: Jerry it. 

Mollie: Period. 

Jon: Poop emoji.

Matt: All right. All right, John. So we’d like to end our guests segments with a rapid fire question, right? So you didn’t know what smart 

Mollie: John’s good at, this kind of stuff. I feel like. 

Matt: All right, here we go. So what are you, what are you binge watching? What are you [00:51:00] reading and what are you listening to? And, and if you have any other interesting fact you want to throw in there, feel free.

Jon: Okay. Binge-watching. I just, I’m man, I’ve been just watching like standup comedy on Netflix. I just love it. just watched the Tom Papa about like three 

Matt: hours just to watch that one too, just the other night. That was great. 

Jon: You’re doing great. You’re doing great. It’s a, it’s a great, it’s a great bit. what was the, so it’s a, it’s binge-watching, reading, reading.

And listening to. So, most recently I was listening to building perspectives with Matt and Mollie. I, I, I sort of jump around and what I’ve been listening to, it’s kinda gross. I’ve been listening to that, a lot of WIP sports talk in the morning on the way to work. It’s sort of been like guilty pleasure.

And I, I have like a whole thing of podcasts that are just queued up waiting for me to stop procrastinating. So I’m, that’s just being straight up and honest. That’s what’s happening in my world. And for reading, cause I do a lot of that. there is, I usually just do audio books and [00:52:00] listen. But one thing I’m going to say that’s weird that I was reading, I’m going to go, there’s no way anyone else said this.

There’s this graphic novel called paper girls. And I never read graphic novels. Never read one before. It probably won’t 

Mollie: be what? Accurate. More than a graphic. 

Jon: No, but it’s.

Here’s what I’m saying. It is. It is this weird Saifai thing that has a bunch of issues and it just wrapped up and I’m promising you someone’s going to make. A Netflix show out of this because it’s like stranger things, but set in the ATCs and it’s not in the 80s and it is not pornography and it is a, it’s really good.

I should, I should’ve just said, I should’ve just made up a book, like how to, how to win friends and influence people. That’s what I’m reading for this 78th time along with the myth. For realtors. Those are the [00:53:00] 10 books. 

Mollie: I would definitely read those. 

Jon: We might need to edit this podcast. 

Matt: This 

Mollie: is why you’re our favorite.

We love working with you. It’s always fun. We always learn a lot and have a good time. Again, I wish we were friends in high school cause we missed out on a lot of laughing 

Jon: a lot of times, but 

Mollie: I will reveal that you were much smarter than me and that’s . Probably why we were in different groups of friends.

But, don’t let your head get too big. 

Jon: I, I can’t, it turns out your skull, it just like stops at one.  get bigger. and, appreciate that. Appreciate you lying in front of all these people on the podcast that, I’m smart. So I appreciate that. yeah, no, you’re really good at it. You should get into marketing.

so, or law or law, I don’t know. What’s the other industries we can make fun of? guys, thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. We should do this again 

Matt: over coffee. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was a blast and there was some great, [00:54:00] other than the poop emoji, there was some really good takeaways, for, for our listeners, so thanks for coming on.

Mollie: Thanks John. 

Jon: Appreciate it guys. .

And when I got into that. It just took it to another level. And the reason why it’s special because it goes past the whole lot. It goes past descriptive characteristics of a person and goes into their core motivations into their, motives. So it, it’s a fascinating study in that. And I think, you know, Simon Sinek was very pivotal in helping people to focus, not just on the what to put on the Hawaiian.

So an example is, you know, instead of just describing somebody as being an extrovert or being, liking to be in control or wanting to be a perfectionist, it describes. Why they want to do that.

[00:01:00] hi and welcome to building perspective with Matt Riley and Mollie. I’ll bring value to you and your team by exploring all things sales and market. All from different perspectives. And today, our focus discussion of the week is increasing sales with the Enneagram of personality. But first, let’s dive into our top topics of the week.

And I have a really important one. I want to have a great debate that has nothing to do with any kind of presidential election. She, I F. How do you say that word? It’s really simple. It’s Jif. I totally agree with you, and that is the answer that I give as well. But you will find that many of our listeners are [00:02:00] going to disagree with us.

So what we want you to do is comment on social. We want to hear G I F. Jif or GIF because I have to tell you, I think this might be a generational thing because I’m hearing a lot of, gifts around here. Well, they’re wrong. Great. It’s pretty much that simple. I totally agree. But I want to hear from our audience because this is really important and I want to make sure we have this debate.

Set the record straight. Matt and Mollie both agree it’s Jeff. It’s Jeff. Bring it. Anybody who says otherwise, let’s see what you got. All right. All right, so we are super excited because this week we have our special guest, Quint liers, and again, he’s going to be breaking down. Any Agram personality type and really how you can understand the different types of personalities and how you can really adjust your sales [00:03:00] presentation, your talks, you know, your interactions of people as a whole, not just selling things.

and Quint has a ton to share it. I think he’s been studying the Enneagram. For like for about five years, and is super, super passionate about it. he actually used the Enneagram sales style in his talk at the sales rally, and then he gave a separate talk at IBS that was dedicated solely to the Enneagram personality test.

And so we invited quince come in because I know Mollie and I. Love talking about why people do what they do and how their brain ticks and just really any type of insight into why people are who they are and why they do the actions that they do and then how we can better interact with everyone. So.

We’re really excited to have Quint on, and he has tons and tons to share. So we are going to dive right into our talk and bring Quint in because he’s got tons to share and it’s [00:04:00] really great information. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to take a quick break and then we come right back. We’re going to dive into our focus discussion of the week, increasing sales with the Enneagram of personality with the one and only.

Quint liers so hang on and we’ll be right back.

all right, and we’re back. We’re going to do. Dive into our focus discussion of the week, increasing sales with the Enneagram of personality, and we’re so excited to have our buddy, quaint liers here with us. Welcome Quinn. Super excited to be here. Thank you, lolly. Thank you, Matt. So we’ve actually talked about you on a couple of our previous podcasts.

We’re really excited to discuss the Enneagram with you [00:05:00] and how you apply it to sales. we have, you know, we want to hear about all the energy that you brought to sales central on this specific topic, and we both have so much to learn and. Before we start, we actually took our own personality tests, and that’s something that our listeners can do after they listen to this podcast.

So we, we may want to give them some resources so they can take their own tests as well. Yeah, absolutely. We’ll actually, Mollie, we’ll put the, we’ll put the link. There’s a free version, of the Enneagram that you can take. We’ll put that in the show notes, and highly recommend that you do that. And then if you want, it’s one of those like give you a shortened report for free.

and if you want the full report, it’s like 20 bucks. And I did. I did the $20 full report just to kind of see it, and then we’ll get into that a little bit as well, because I actually sent my results to Quint and, we might do a little mat evaluation towards the end and we can see how messed up in the head.

[00:06:00] I love it. So Quinn, we’re glad you’re here. I tell us a little bit about yourself and what you’re going to talk about today and our audience wants to hear from you. Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having you on the program. And you know, I love sales. I always have since like I was a kid. I love people. I’ve always been fascinated by human nature and human beings.

I actually grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family and. So I’ve always kind of looked at people like, what’s going on with this person? So I’ve, I’ve, I’ve become kind of versatile with working with various personality types. So I’ve always been drawn to this kind of thing. when I found the Enneagram of personality, I felt like I just went deep dive and it kind of explain, it helped me understand myself.

Other people conflict, and as default, it’s maybe become a better. Sales, professional marketing speaker just all around. It’s helped my marriage. It’s helped me as a being a dad, and it’s a [00:07:00] lot of fun. So I highly recommend just getting into it. It’s a deep dive study. It’s not easy. It’ll take some time. But it’s worth it. What is the Enneagram? I mean, we are starting to hear it more and more. I’ve seen, you know, a couple posts on social media is becoming more popular, but you’ve been talking about this for a while. You actually sent me a book a while ago about the Enneagram of parenting. So can you just tell us what, what is, what is the Enneagram?

So a couple of things. I was introduced to, I was starting a for, I think going on about five years. And, My wife is the one that introduced me to it. I was studying this other thing called the nine whys. So remember the Simon Sinek book, start with why. Yeah. That kinda got me started on this journey. So I started with that book.

But then the next question is, what is your why? And there’s a gentleman in Albuquerque that has a program called the nine whys. So I’m studying that, and my wife just reads really random, weird, deep things, and she goes, that sounds like the [00:08:00] Enneagram. So I’m like, what is the Enneagram. So I went to, and it’s not the same thing, but the Enneagram is based off of nine personality types.

And when I got into that, it just took it to another level. And the reason why it’s special because it goes past the whole lot. It goes past descriptive characteristics of a person that goes into their core motivations, into their, motives. So it, it’s a fascinating study in that. And I think, you know, Simon Sinek was very pivotable in helping people to focus, not just on the what to put on the Hawaiian.

So an example is, you know, instead of just describing somebody as being an extrovert or being, liking to be in control or wanting to be a perfectionist, it describes why they want to do that childhood patterns. And so the. You know, one thing it will really pull out, one of the goals is to actually to increase love and empathy for other humans.

So instead of coming and going like, gosh, that customer is really tough. I mean, they’re really direct in the way the approach to me. I can [00:09:00] kind of understand, Hey, this is what they’re trying to accomplish with that. So again, it goes past the what and it goes into the fly. The Enneagram is. Really it any, I means nine and gram means drawing.

So it’s a mix of ancient wisdom, modern psychology and practical application. And there’s a lot of different applications. Like today we’re going to talk about any, your grandma’s sales. the, the book I sent you, Mollie, was the Enneagram of parenting. There’s the Enneagram of management and how to coach people in marriage counseling and on and on and marketing.

So it’s a, it’s just a profound tool to understand yourself and other people. So when you say it, it breaks down kind of the why. That’s what you’re saying, the differences between the Enneagram test and say disc or Myers, Myers Briggs, or, you know, the other, many of the other very popular personality [00:10:00] assessments right.

Well, and by the way, I recommend them all and all of the disc. Okay? You can use disc or bolted bulls as lambs tigers or the STR or the, when I first learned it was the analyst, promoter, supporter, controller. All of those are based upon the original Greek, which was, you know, thousands of years old, which is the melancholy phlegmatic cleric and sanguine.

And there’s a lot of books that were written around round that, you know, Tim LaHaye wrote a book, why you act the way. You do. Beverly LaHaye wrote a lot of books about that. And so kind of like, if you can rename those four Greek, temperaments, you can, you know, start training or doing something around that subject.

And it’s, the temperament is different than the personality, but I recommend studying all of it. The Myers Briggs, it’s, I think Isabel Myers or Katherine Briggs, those are mother and daughter team, that, that stuff is based upon the, The, the, the psychologist, young Carl Young, and, they added two more things, perception, or I forget [00:11:00] the other three that they added to it to equate it.

But really what made that one successful wasn’t more, more to, we wanted to know who Hitler was. We wanted to know who, you know, who was our enemies and what was the psychology behind that. And so that was a driving force. They were actually able to create a test because they had a test. It was, they used it in the military.

They used it as a psychology tool to understand. Soldiers, which, which soldiers would be in best a career field. And then it took that and went to colleges and has been used by a lot of businesses. I recommend studying it because it’s just a, a great tool for understanding, other people. The Enneagram is just a little different though.

Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say that. I think that, cause you said, I think you should study it all. And I agree with you because in general, you know, I, in my career, I started off in sales, sold things a long, long time ago, obviously on the marketing side of things now. But I think that anybody. That wants to get better at their craft.

Anybody that [00:12:00] interacts with people on a day to day basis, and like you said, it even goes over into your marriage, into your family life, things like that. But I think that top sales professionals, top marketing professionals, and the list goes on and on, but people at the top of their craft are always fascinated of of.

What picks, what makes people tick and why it makes them tick. and so I’ve always been fascinated, and I know, you know, Mollie and Quint, we’ve, we’ve all had that. We’ve actually had this conversation prior to, which is exactly why we’re having this podcast, but we’ve all talked about how fascinate, how we’re all fascinated with understanding people better.

So we can serve them better, whether that’s the people that you know are under our leadership or customers that we’re interfacing with, or your spouse or your children, or the members of your, you know, church or wherever. I think that to me it’s always been a fascination of, of why people tick and that’s why, this was all, [00:13:00] I felt like this was such a great topic to cover because you are so passionate about it as a whole.

Oh yeah, man, I, I go, I become kind of obsessive about things and this one, I went deep dive, if you want to, you’re a quick, funny story. I was a. I mean if anybody brings this up, I’m like ready to talk about it. And you know, at this, at the international builders show, I was like, okay Quinn, no talking about the, any extra stuff.

Cause I kinda, I wanted to preserve my voice cause I just keep talking. And I had 20 years, you know, the nationals had to interview a bunch of people, the sales rally, sales central. So I was like, don’t talk, but I’m on his bus drive home. And they started talking about the Enneagram and I’m like. All right, guys.

I just started talking. Oh. But you know, I actually got a shopped one time. I build her shop to me. which is good. It’s a great practice. You always want to see what’s happening out there. but it’s so funny because the story that this shopper had was, Oh yeah, my husband passed away and I’m here. This is know this older lady, and she might, my husband passed away, so I need to buy a house [00:14:00] in here in Cruces.

And I’m thinking like, Oh my gosh. Like, so one thing I always try to do is. You know, recommend things. If somebody’s new to town, I want to recommend a restaurant. Oh, if you need a tire, this is a great place. Things have nothing to do with the home. Oh, if you’re new to your area, you know, check out, you gotta check this restaurant out.

And it’s just a good practice to get into. It. Just be a person of influence that recommends things that you don’t make a diamond. And there’s, you know, the selfish motivation obviously increases your, your, influence. But it’s also just a good human thing to do. So it just happened like the next week I was going to be teaching a class on the Enneagram to the local real estate brokers.

So I said, Hey, you know, like if you’re in town next week, you should come to this class. Cause I’m just thinking she’s moving to town. Doesn’t know anybody, just lost a family member, you know? And then she’s like, what’s the Enneagram. Like, ding, ding, ding. So next thing I go into the seminar about the Enneagram, you know, well, it’s all been recorded, so my, you know, my manager’s like, [00:15:00] quit.

How did you, you know, we shopped too. How’d you think you do? I’m like, I have no idea. And they went through the questions like, did you greet, did you establish rapport? Did you separate? Did you talk about differences? Did you talk about financing? It was a guest. Yes. Yes. He was like, you probably think you did pretty good.

He was like, let’s play the tape. And it’s just like 20 minute thing of me teaching the Enneagram and like type one is this and type two is that. So I kinda got like dinged on light shop. but, but it was just a funny thing, just something funny about it. You know, like I was listening, this one sales trainer who’s like, you know, you got to get your people shopped and, and your sales people are going to complain saying.

You know, Oh I don’t like to be shopped cause it makes me look weird on camera and the trainers is, that’s not true. It’s like you look weird because you look weird like the cameras. How you look. I’m going to tell you right now, it’s not true. I looked like this gremlin cause I’m standing up and like squeezed my head sideways.

I look like this weird. It was horrible. Like I, I felt so horrible about that. Like, I didn’t even sleep that night. [00:16:00] But, anyway, point is like, I’m excited about the interview. It has the potential to hijack. Your brain. One of the things that Matt and I both love about you is your passion, and you obviously have a passion for new home sales, but when we talk to you about the Enneagram, you show that same passion.

I know for me, you were trying to figure out my personality type immediately. you know, going through the Enneagram. I would love it if you can take our listeners actually through, you know, some of the different personality types. So I, it is one to nine. and just like how it works overall with your, with the wings and all that, if you can give us like an overview, let’s break it down.

So there are nine, according to the Enneagram, there are nine and only nine. I call them home basis or. personality patterns. Think about habit pattern that you develop as a child. Okay? So it’s not who you are. It’s a pattern that kind of works. Think about your body. It’s, it’s keeping you at [00:17:00] 98.6 degrees, and that has nothing to do with that.

It’s just kind of behind the scenes, controlling your temperature, your heartbeat things. There’s an operating system. That controls those things, but in the personality we know, I mean, you’re around certain people and that this person is different. This person’s more aggressive, this person’s more withdrawn.

This is a supportive type. So the Enneagram, we’ll describe, and I’ll run through each nine. Perfect. So there’s one through nine and there’s not one that’s better or worse, it’s just they’re in this order. So type one is the perfectionist. It’s also known as the reformer. Two is the reformer. I like it.

What’s the song? The informer, this is the reformer. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. A two is the, that’s Creighton.

Hey, man, should quit the sing on the podcast. So too is the helper or giver and you’ll, three is the achiever. Or performer, or is the [00:18:00] individualist or romantic five is the investigator also known as the observer? Six is the loyalist or skeptic. Seven is the enthusiast or some people known as the Epicure.

eight is the challenger, or also known as the protector. Nine is the peacemaker or mediator, and that’s the nine types. So they break it into. And I’ll describe the nine types for me. First, describe this. There are three that are in the head center and they deal with anxiety. There’s three that are in the heart center, and they deal with a shame or identity, and there’s three that are in the gut center, which they, those deal with

They have a sense of like anger and that would, that would be driving them or they’re also known as the body type. And we know this, so like we, we ask, I love Myers Barnes. He had a. Program on YouTube when he says like, don’t ask people what they think, ask them how they [00:19:00] feel because it’s, you know, we don’t go home and think about it.

We go home and feel about it. But if we keep asking our customers, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think when then they have to, we’re forcing them into the left side of the brain. Well, in reality, and that’s, that’s good practice. But in reality, there are some people that actually go home and think about it.

Five, six, and sevens are in the head types. and they think eight, nine, and one are in the gut, and they will make instinctual decisions. Mollie, we talked about like, you’re able to make very quick decisions. if you are in the gut triad, you can feel things with your body. Imagine a tiger or Elian. It’s not like, let me think about which direction to go.

All the deer’s going over there. I better go. Chase him that way. But what if they’re not thinking? Their whole body is into it? They’re very decisive because they’re making a body decision. And then the, the heart triads, which is two type two, three and four, they feel things in their heart. and there’s some exceptions to that, but it’s, so [00:20:00] let me go a little bit deeper on each type.

Let’s start with, I’m going to start with eight, nine and one are the gut center. So I’m going to go a little bit ahead and start with two, three and four. So these folks are in the heart center. let’s talk about type two. Type two is the helper or the giver. they’re super caring that you can like feel that they walk into a room and they just kind of have a radar.

Tied into your needs, your emotions, your desires, and your once, I mean, they, they can, they’re almost more tuned into you than they are in themselves. They’re, you know, a super caring, loving, attentive towards others, and they’re generous. Their key motivation is to feel loved, to be needed, and to feel appreciated.

Now, each one has a key, kind of a key feature, I call it, with the type two. I call it their kryptonite, they can disconnect from their own needs. So if you ask a type two, Hey, what do you need? Like, no, I’m good, I’m good. They know all of your needs. But they’re in the [00:21:00] process of disconnecting from their own needs.

And, if they’re looking for a home, the type two is not looking for their own needs. They’re thinking about the needs of their family, the needs of their children, the needs of their neighbors. And how will this, will there be enough storage in the pantry? Will there be, how will this. No. Will there be well, my children are neighbors or from having a party, but they’re there.

Others centered type three is the achiever or performer, and they’re super efficient, driven, and adaptable. Their key motivation is to be admired and to impress others and to feel valued. So a type two as a child felt like their own needs weren’t important. So they kind of flipped the script and made it.

Other people’s needs, the most important thing, but in secretly they want you, they want to meet your needs, but in return, they want that person to come back and to love them. Does that make sense? The type three type three is a little different. They, as a [00:22:00] child felt like they weren’t valued just intrinsically for who they were.

it was more about their performance. So they learned to kind of perform and it’s like, wow, did you hear little Johnny got a little, Johnny was star Trek player and they started performing and they realized, wow, this pays off. But deep down they have a, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say, it seems as though we kind of in our country.

Breed type three. Is that right? Or no people to achieve and value themselves based on achievement. Yeah. And you’ll notice even, okay, not only do countries kind of take on a certain personality type or certain value types are valued. even companies do. So a certain culture, we talk about culture a lot.

Whoever’s kind of the influencer in a group, that company can start to take on. the characteristics of that type, but yeah, type threes. I think Ian Morgan crone in his book, the way back to you and Susan staples, the other author on [00:23:00] that book, but they talk about America is like a type three. Like, it’s the equivalent of like an alcoholic living on top of a bar, you know, like on top of a, a bar where.

You know, th th they’re almost drunk with success. Like we applaud achievement and performance and success so much in our society, whereas other sides, societies will value maybe originality or keeping the peace or, you know, being loyal. So it’s a fascinating thing that you’ll each, each country can kind of take on different characteristics, but the type three, they’re very concerned, you know, they’re concerned about, Hey, how is this house gonna make me look?

How has this one, you know, but really they, they, they can kind of disconnect from themselves, even though they’re in the heart triad and they kind of read a group. They could walk into a room and say. What do I need to do to perform? How do I need to act? What’s the role that I need to play to be successful in this group?

In this organization? [00:24:00] They’re, they’re typically like attractive. They look good, they, and it doesn’t have to mean they’re wearing like a Rolex. I’ve heard examples where it’s like, Hey, if you’re a carpenter, like they know the look like. To look exactly like a carpenter. There’s one type three where he took his hammers and like scratched them all up in the ground because like he wanted it to look like he was like this hardcore carpenter, you know, if they’re a surfer, like they didn’t have their dreadlocks just the right place.

So they know exactly what to do, but they’re, they’re performing based upon their assessment of the group, but deep down they want to feel valued. And then type four is fascinating. So, they’re the individualist or the romantic. What’s that song like? I don’t belong here. Radiohead. Radiohead. I can’t, I don’t know what it is.

Keep going. Cause Ima, there’s now where the song is. Okay. They feel like the outcast. They feel like, like, Oh, think Marilyn Manson, the [00:25:00] beautiful people. Like you’re looking at everybody else, like they got all their crap together and I don’t, I misunderstood. So these are fascinating. They’re actually the most rare of all the types.

They’re very emotional. They’re tapped into their emotions. So they look at the mom. And they kind of as a child, but you know, I’m not really like my mom. And they look at their dad and they say, I’m not really like my dad. And they go, who am I? And it kind of go on this journey of self discovery deep into themselves.

So they’re kind of like a submarine into the human emotions soul. And when they come up to the surface, they’re going to have something profound. You guys know I’m on new home sales.com I’ve got like an amazing graphic guy in videographer, TJ. He’s a type four. And it, everything that he does is like an outward expression of like a profound emote, like the emotional state.

The problem is emotions are always changing. And I’d tell him, I’m like, sometimes I’m frustrated TJ, cause I just need this little graphic, you know? But he wants to, he wants to like feel it. But when he does. It’s absolute [00:26:00] genius. He able to tap into the emotions and the rhythms. I mean, they’re just amazing humans.

but they want to feel unique and express themselves. So here’s a quick sales application. Oh, this is our most popular plan. If you have a type four, you just lost the sale completely. They will not buy it if it’s the same as everybody else’s. So they want to know, is it one of a kind? Is it different?

Isn’t it outward expression of my inward emotions and their fears having no identity? I know type four is where I mean, I, I’ll, I’ll ask them, there’s one type for us at a conference. I was like, Hey, let me ask a question. Like your shoes. Like, they look pretty special. He’s like, yeah. I’m like, what if I told you like, I have those same shoes?

How would you feel? And it goes. You don’t have these shoes. I was like, point taken, you know? Got it. Yeah. But you know, so it’s just a totally different, they’re very sensitive. They’re very, very, like in tune with emotions and feelings. And, they’re, they’re just very amazing people. [00:27:00] So let’s, let’s transition and can keep throwing questions at me.

I love that. But we’re transitioning from the heart to the head. So two threes and fours are in the heart. Triad twos are kind of disconnect from their heart and connected the hearts of other people. threes will disconnect from their heart and kind of, achieve what the group thinks is important.

And, fours will, Kind of tap into their heart and bring things to the surface that are unique, beautiful, emotional. But the idea is that it’s centered around the heart in a certain way, and all of them are dealing with an identity. Like who am I to? Is want to be seen as loving, caring, generous people.

Three’s wanting to be seen as successful in the realm that they’re in. And fours, you want to be seen as a unique, special, different. As, as you’re talking about these, and Matt, I’m sure it’s the same for you. I’m just picturing some of the people in my life and as you’re describing it, it, you know, I’m thinking, Oh my gosh, it’s so obvious.

You know, my son is this one, my sisters, this one, my husband has this one, so you know exactly. I think you can, I [00:28:00] can see why you say it’s so easy to get pulled in and go pretty deep with it. Well, yeah, and I’ll tell you, this is like. also let me tell you, be very careful trying to type people. Like I’ve been studying, I’ve read over 30 books.

I’ve been through courses on this thing. I’ve been obsessed with it. I’ve literally like secretly or overtly like work with hundreds of people trying to find their type right. But be very careful trying to type people. Even with all the training I’ve been through in the reading and everything, I’m wrong a lot.

And there’s things that are look alike. And even when you’re testing yourself, it’s often hard to get it right because. Of several reasons. A lot of times we’re playing a role. Like if I’m, if I’m, if I’m taking a test and it’s like, do you like to set goals? Like, heck yeah, I’m successful. You know? But it’s the motivation behind it.

It’s the, so anyway, I’d be very careful trying to type other people. Never use this as a weapon or a, you know, like, Oh, stop being such a fine, you know, like, you never want to do that because it can be very, I mean, this goes deep into the emotion. Into the soul [00:29:00] of another human. Does that make sense?

It does, and I think, you know, something we talk about is. If there’s one thing our world can use, it’s more empathy. So the whole takeaway is really not to use it again to type people, but more to just like understand that people are different and there isn’t one that’s better or worse than that. They’re different in there.

It’s interesting. More than anything. And, and wanting to see our differences. Well, and I think if it was like a language, sorry for interrupting. Imagine, imagine if it’s like, When I first came to Las Cruces, I tried to, I was going to college. I was like, I just need to sit somewhere, you know, and I wasn’t in new home sales at the time, so I applied for Palm Harbor mobile homes, literally selling like, you know, the, the trailers that are mobile homes that, and they wouldn’t hire me cause I didn’t speak Spanish.

They’re like, sorry, we can’t speak Spanish. So I realized like, Holy cow, I need to learn Spanish now if I said. Well, I learned Spanish so I could speak with people. Some people would say that’s pretty manipulative, you know, you’re learning their language to speak to them. Well, the same thing with the [00:30:00] Enneagram.

I could look at it and say, you know, gosh, Mollie, this is pretty, you’re, you’re tapping into some deeper psychology, you know, an emotional things. Well, yes, but anything could be used as a positive or a negative. And I think once you have empathy. You’re going to use your powers for good. Does that make sense?

So anyway, let, Matt, you were going to say something? No, I was just going to say, cause I want to dive in and get into how the different personality types work and I want to make sure that we hit, I think we left off at what, five, six? I’m going into five so I did two, threes and five and those are in the heart.

Yes. So now we’re in the head. Five is the investigator or the observer. So you’re just around these people and it’s like, wow, this person is smart. I mean, like they have their, they just feel like they’re, they’re deep. You’re going into deep waters, but it’s not in the emotions like the four. It’s in the head.

Like the five. Matter of fact, they [00:31:00] don’t even experience emotions. They literally experience. Thoughts and then you have to translate those thoughts into emotions. so type five. As a child, they felt like there wasn’t room for them. Like there wasn’t, they didn’t have their own space. I have a type five friend.

I said, did you ever feel like you didn’t have your own space? And he goes, yeah, we had like eight kids in my family and. I begged my mom to sleep in the living room and sleep in the laundry room. And finally she relented and said, sure, fine. And then he was happy. So a lot of people like a type three will fight for the corner office where everybody can see them.

A type five will fight for like the office that nobody can see them because they’re trying to go deep. And it’s hard to go deep with interruptions or, Anyway, so they, they want to be compar. They’re very compartmentalized. They can be isolated. Their key motivation is to have knowledge, to have privacy and to have their own space.

They feel very good [00:32:00] when they’re gaining knowledge. They feel bad when they’re giving knowledge, not like teaching it, but like when somebody is learning about them, they feel like, kinda like their power is diminishing. there think of a bunker, like, so like there’s. Three different ways to deal with anxiety.

You can hide from it. You can get a bunch of team members and go, you know, attack the anxiety with as a team, as a group. Or you can try to outrun the anxiety. And that’s what, five, six, and sevens do. Five, they try to bunker down and hide from the anxiety. Six is try to team up and to become loyalists.

They’re the ones that. Combat it as a team, and then sevens are just always on the go, and they’re actually trying to outrun the anxiety. But, and Quinn, I think you’re a seven, is that right? I’m a seven. Yeah, I am. . You could see that, cause I’m always on the go. I’m always like, what’s going up too? He’s like five steps ahead.

You [00:33:00] and there’s, there’s pros and cons of each of these have a positive and a negative. But the fives, I have a friend who’s in the FBI and like, what are you doing? He’s like, I’m just going to crime scene. I’m like, Oh my gosh, are you, you know, there’s just no big deal to them cause they’re just. No counting bullets or something, you know?

So yeah, it’s all academic for them. Got now, tell us about eight, nine, and one. Okay. real quick, let me, let me just summarize. Six and seven. Okay. Six responsible. So there are a lot of, six is out there. They’re the ones that when they come back to your model home, they’re going to bring their cousin, their aunt.

They’re looking for like a reassurance. They’re looking for. kind of a group decision right there. They, they’re, they’re very cautious. They’re suspicious, they’re team oriented. I have a, a type six customer and he’s always wearing Cowboys hat and like, so you’re a Cowboys fan? He goes, yeah, I go, he goes, I have a flag that I put up every Sunday.

And I said, what have I paid you 1000 bucks to where a 49 or she’s like, I wouldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. Like there’s so loyal, the man, it’s extreme example, [00:34:00] but they want to be counted on. They want to be. I’m a person, they go to great lengths to prove that they can be counted on and trustworthy, but secretly they want to know, can I trust you?

Are you going to let me down? so they want to build trust, feel secure, and be counted on type sevens. They’re energetic, spontaneous, future oriented. Their key motivation is to experience, to be taken care of, to have multiple options. So you don’t want to think a seven field track. You don’t want to take away their options.

And so if you’re, and you’re the ones that they sell the sizzle, not the steak, that would be the example between a five and a seven with a five. You would want to sell the steak. Like, Hey, this is a steak. It’s, you know, this is the protein, but the seven, they’re the ones that get really into the experience of it.

Like, Hey, what’s it gonna feel like when you have this home and there’s a party out back and you’re grilling the steaks and you’re, and it’s going to be amazing. And, they’re big picture, super fast thinkers, but they’re really. Underneath it all [00:35:00] as a sense of anxiety. And, so it again, each one has kind of a positive and a negative.

You don’t want to make them feel trapped. One quick note about the type fives. You know, we’re, we’re trained in sales to like get to know the customer. Where are you from? tell me about your family. A type five is very uncomfortable with giving out information. Everything’s on a need to know basis. So if I have a type five, I get really specific, give them tons of information and EV required no information from them.

I don’t try to extract information or like, where are you from or where are your kids? That’s not endearing to them. It’s a major turn off. and it increases their anxiety. All right. Eight, nine and one. Any questions about the, the head triad.

keep going. All right. Eight, nine, and one. So eights, nines and ones are in the body center. They’re in the gut and they’re dealing with anger or control. It’s a sense of control. We put that work and AIDS try to control their outer [00:36:00] world type ones are trying to control or restrain their inner world and type nines kind of disconnect from, their emotions to keep the peace.

So if you’ll notice the ones in the centers, there’s three, six and nine. Those are in the disconnection triad, I call it. So again, is disconnect from themselves to achieve whatever the group wants. A six is disconnect from themselves and identify with a group and nines disconnect from themselves to, to keep the peace and kind of they merge with other humans.

I know I’m covering a lot of information. My goal right now is not to do a comprehensive Enneagram course, but to just get you like, interested in, like you said, Mollie, like as I’m talking, people will come into mind like, Oh my gosh, that sounds like Joe, or whatever. Confrontational. They like conflict type AIDS, like conflict.

They’re decisive. There. They want to be in control. So I like to say eight are like snowplows they’re awesome to be behind. They’re not too great to be ahead of them. Right. they’re super tough. Like they’re tough human beings. [00:37:00] Like they feel, they think that they’re actually bigger than they actually are.

They attend to even injure themselves cause it’s like, Oh, I’ll move that piece of furniture by myself. but they’re ultimately in their, in their heart of hearts, they’re very vulnerable. They’re loving, caring, and they’re actually protectors. They see themselves as protectors of the innocent, but do not try to control a type eight.

You ever, you ever seen, you know, cause you got to control the sale. You have your heard that ever. Oh, of course. Yeah. Not with an eight. If you try to control me, they’re like, okay, bring it. Let’s do this. I was waiting for this. They like conflict because it brings things through the surface. They do not like hidden information.

If you withhold information from a type eight. They, they do not like that. So if you have an issue with them, just be totally upfront. Tell them everything. let them be in control. I like to pee. I like to tell an eight. If I’m working with an aid, Hey look, you direct to me. What do you want to do next?

And I give them short, quick answers to the point. A great quote for a type eight would be, don’t [00:38:00] build me a clock. Tell me what time it is. Yup. So they love the point type nines. Everybody loves type nines. Right? because, Hey, where do you want to go to eat? I don’t care. Wherever you want to go, where do you want to?

and they’re just, they’re there, but they’re not there. They kind of disappear there and there as a child, they felt like there was not room for their emotions. So they harmonize with other people. They merge with other humans. They’re easygoing, and they’re agreeable. They’re very comfortable to be around.

they want to avoid conflict. They want to. Be comfortable. They want to have peace. So obviously if you’re working with a, you know, a nine, they could be that. So everybody loves them as a customer. Like I’m working with this customer, there’s so nice, I love these people. But they never make a decision cause they’re kind of disconnected from their emotions.

They can kind of fall into sloths if they’re not careful because a lot of energy is derived from emotions. And if I disconnect from my emotions, it’s easier for me to kind of go along. Could it go with the flow. if [00:39:00] you’re friends with a type nine, it’s like, I love this person. Like wherever I want to go, they want to go.

But they can become passive aggressive. So sometimes we really want to know where they want to go, you know? So where do you wanna eat? I don’t. So there, a nine would be interested in, in a home that’s quiet. That’s peaceful. That’s serenity. That’s, you know, so any kind of. Conflict, they don’t do well, they’ll withdraw from you.

So again, nine one is the perfectionist. They stay, Oh, well we didn’t do one. Let’s go back to one. So, sorry. We started at two. So type one. Any questions on the type nine, Mollie or Matt? Nope. Okay. So type nine type one is the perfectionist. And, they can look their, like, their lives are being bombarded by imperfections.

They can look at a. So if you say, Oh my gosh, I found you the perfect house, tell that to a type one. You’ll see them kind of smirk, like, show it to me. They will find imperfection everywhere and. [00:40:00] And so you never want to say that. Like, I actually, if I’m working with a type one, I’ll say stuff like, look, no, home is perfect, but we’re relentless about improving.

And that’s what a one wants to hear. They know nothing’s perfect because they see imperfection everywhere and they’re always trying to reform or perfect. the downside is nothing is ever perfect. It’s like the noon sun. Once it hits noon, then it’s one o’clock and then two o’clock and then it changes.

They’re often very frustrated. They feel angry and resentful, but they don’t show it. If you’re running one, he said, are you angry? Like, I’m not angry, but you could tell they’re tents. and anyways, so they’re often as a child, they were often had to grow up kind of fast and be mature and good. So where’s, type two wants to feel loved.

Three wants to be successful. A type one wants to feel like they’re righteous or good or ultimately perfect. So that’s kind of a quick, super surface level. of the type nine. Any questions on those? No. I do have a comment though. So for me, I’m sure like many of our [00:41:00] listeners, you know, there are pieces of each that that you relate to and, and I definitely had a good idea of which one I was.

but then I learned about the wings. And I think that that’s important because, because of how the Enneagram works, do you mind sharing a little bit about what the wings, how that works? And so let me also, besides just talking about. The core motivation, like, okay, type ones want to be, they have a need to be right.

A type two has a need to be needed. Threes have a need to achieve. Fours have a need for being unique, especial different. Five. Seven need to know a six, have a need for support. 77 need to experience AIDS. Have a need to be against. Like it’s only, I got an eight son. No matter what I come up with, he’s going to pick the opposite side and argue it.

You know, and nines have a need to avoid. But the, any groups. So any grant is dynamic besides just talking about the. Core motivations. It’s dynamic. So, just [00:42:00] like through life today, I might be feeling really healthy and secure. Tomorrow, I might feel insecure. I might be happy one day and sad the other.

Well, the Enneagram is dynamic in its approach. So it’s called integration and disintegration or security and insecurity. But I let, let’s take a type eight type eight who goes into the world. Wanting to be strong, to be seen as decisive and competent, and I’m in control, but deep down they want that. When they’re feeling secure, they actually move toward the positive side of too.

So they, they look like a to I. I think we might. Mollie, I think you might be an eight. Am I correct? I am. Well, I think you’re a healthy eight because. When I met with you, I’m like, you feel like a two. But I just couldn’t. But then I was thinking it was a one and it was, it was hard. But, but anyway, eight, when they’re feeling secure, move to the healthy side of two and they use their powers for good.

They, [00:43:00] for, to protect people and to, to, to be a helper. But they do it with a lot of power and do it with strength. Ma, Mollie, make sure you use your powers for good. That you too man. And, and when an eight. Feels insecure, they move to kind of the negative side of nine of five. So they kind of withdrawal, and they, they feel like, Hey, I’m not winning right now.

I heard a podcast, or I think it was saying like, think of like a general in battle. Like they’re, they’re winning the battle, but now the sudden I’m losing the battle, so I need to go back in the bunker. So an eight we’ll kind of go on back in the bunker, but typically they’re like going to study strategy.

Then they’d come back up at eight and start winning again. But anyway, the point is that each type, and this is obviously maybe another episode or just some self study has. A direction they go to in health or unhealth or integration and disaggregation and disintegration. If you look at the any, it’s a graph of nine and there’s numbers to the right and left of each type.

So let’s take eight for the example. An eight is next to nine [00:44:00] or eight is next to seven. Think of eight as like scrambled eggs. And then you have salt and pepper on each side, right? And like you might have a little bit more salt or you might have a little bit more pepper. I’ve heard that analogy. I think that’s the Ian Morgan Cron.

What I like to do is think of it as a sun and a moon. Right, a ha, a warm side and a cool side. So let’s take eight eight with a seven wing is kind of like a more fiery aid. It’s an aide who’s super enthusiastic. They’re super high energy, an eight with a nine wing. It kind of cools off. The a to kind of blunts their, their sharp edges and makes them a little bit more smooth.

I have to interrupt you for a second because you’re talking about me and Matt right now. So Matt and I are very similar, but we’re also very different. We are both eights, but Matt’s wing is a seven and my wing is a nine. Yeah. And listen, I have no idea how this works or why, and part of my fascination and my obsession with it is like, okay, am I being brainwashed right [00:45:00] now?

Like, okay. And I’m like, okay, okay, let me test this. I keep testing it and testing it and just like with you, like I can sense, okay, this isn’t like an eight, but there’s a cooler side of eight. I actually thought you were the one Mollie, when I, you know, just from the outside observing, and again, it’s not for me to type because.

It has to do with motivations and I don’t know if you’re being healthy or unhealthy. You see what I mean? Yeah. It’s fascinating. So for me, what’s really interesting is, you know, my eight is almost my eight and three are almost proportionately the same. Okay. Let’s break that down a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

Let’s break it down. Okay. Cause you’ve seen my, you’ve seen my assessment. No, let me talk. Let me talk about assessments. Unfortunately, as humans, we’re born on the wrong side of our eyeballs. I think Mike Moore said that, and I’m thinking I’ve taken it from it, but it’s a, we’re born in the Bronx. We don’t see what we don’t see.

Right. So when you’re taking the test, and also a lot of times we’re playing a role, like maybe for an organization or in our family, you [00:46:00] know? So, so that being said, a lot of times it’s good for the spouse. Like Matt, it might be good for your wife to take the test. Because it’ll be like, Oh, for sure.

I’ve had a lot of people go, well, Oh, I’m like that. And then the wife or the husband’s like, ah, no, for sure you’re like that. No, I’m not. Are you serious? You has. You are, you know, and they can see things that we can’t see. The other thing is, again, a lot of us are, we have egos. I have a big ego. You know, Matt, you don’t, but most, most of us do.

I’m just saying, but we all know there’s plenty of you. We will have egos. Okay. So. When we’re asking a question, it’s like, well, I mean, it’s so easy to, I’ll give you example. There was a person who is trying to apply for a sales position, and the company I worked for, it was like, quaint. Can you figure out their Enneagram?

I said, sure. Some asking questions, but every question I asked, it was like, of course I want to do things right. Right. I have to do things right. I shoot for perfection. Oh, love is the most important thing. Oh, I want to set big [00:47:00] goals, but like, no matter what I answered, it was like the right answer for that type because she was trying to.

Be the perfect little candidate, you know? But there is no, does that make sense? So a lot of times we’ll, we’ll answer like, what is what we think is the valuable answer versus who we really are. Like how you want to be seen. It’s like, yes, so like they, when they studied why people buy a Prius, it’s not because they want to save the environment, it’s because of, they want to be someone who is seen as someone who wants to make a good decision and, and care about the environment.

Yes. So this is an interesting thing. So I think, and so, you and I talked to, I told you about this briefly, but, so my wife and I do for our church, we do some marriage mentoring for young couples that are getting ready to get married or couples that have recently gotten married and they just need.

Somebody to help kind of help talk them through some of the nuances of newly, you know, being newly married and all those things that come with it, right. And so, and go to go into this [00:48:00] program, you have to take, you know, to get enrolled into it, you have to take a marriage essentially. It’s not any gram, but it’s a test.

It’s a personality, a test you and your spouse take. and then Amy, my wife and I, we had to take it when we started the being mentors. And what’s interesting about, I think any of these assessments are depending on where you’re at in your life. Sometimes those can change, right? Like how you. How you score yourself or how you Ash, you’d say score yourself, but how you answer some of these questions can vary depending on where you’re at, where your head’s at in that point of your life.

And that’s something that we always really emphasize to couples that we’re meeting with and, and, and going through things with is like, Hey, this is when you took the test. This is where you landed today. But. It can vary a little bit. Right. And kind of where you are in, in, you know, in life as a whole. Do you, do you see the same thing?

Do you agree with that? [00:49:00] Yes. And let me also say that we’re the most ourselves at about age 19 so if you’re going through a test, okay.  you want to pretend like you’re 19 years old. . Cause that’s kinda like the most raw self we’re, you know, we’re in between. That’s really dangerous. I sucked at 19 like I don’t know if I want to be my 19 year old.

Go back to it. Let me think. So the Enneagram is not really to tell us how wonderful we are. It’s actually very mixed. It’s very, very self-revealing and almost vulnerable because it’s like, Oh shoot. Like, I’ve seen a lot of type twos, for example, like I’m in a group and then they kind of withdraw and they’re like, Oh, shoot.

Because their game has been exposed. Does that make sense? It’s like, wait a minute. You’re not like this super altruistic, loving for like, you’re trying to make me love you by meeting my knee into this, this little crafty, strategic. It’s like, Whoa. And then they, [00:50:00] they actually don’t, I’ve had one type two in a class.

I was getting there. Like, I don’t really like it because now I’m worried that people are going to question, you know, when I’m bringing them cookies or whatever, you know? right. Well, I’ll tell you, let’s, let’s have some fun. Let’s, because one of the things that you talked to me that you told me about was how, you know, you gave your talk at the a, at the sales rally.

And you mentioned that you know, you went, obviously you’ve got this big audience in front of you, so this is where we’re taking this and applying this to either the audience that you have in front of you. Okay. And so you said, Hey, I didn’t, obviously there’s going to be a bunch of people in the crowd. I don’t know everybody, I don’t know who’s going to be in the audience.

And you’re like, I basically covered in my talk. I hit something for each different. Type of personality, one through nine on the rung. So, and I thought that was brilliant. so let’s, let’s do this in a real world example. you know, I, like I said at the beginning of the, at the beginning of the segment, I took the full

That took the task. Mollie and I [00:51:00] both had, but I sent it to you, my full blown, my full blown assessment, Enneagram assessment. Let’s maybe you can analyze that. We can kind of talk through about that a little bit, but also the whole purpose of that is knowing the type of personality that I am. Looking at that assessment.

How would you gear. You know, an interaction with me as a sales professional on the customer, knowing what you know about me, how would you gear your presentation, your talk, your interaction with that person? Let me go through all nine types and let me just say this. So I’m covering all this stuff and everybody’s probably listening going, Oh my gosh, this is so confusing.

Like how am I supposed to even type people. Okay. Sometimes I’m able to type somebody like just when they come in. Right. And I can just like, I can just sense it. Right? And I might be wrong, but I had a pretty good sense that could be accurate, but I still might be wrong. So here’s the takeaway. And this is one of my secrets.

Okay? I sell to every single type. So [00:52:00] in my presentation, we should all have a sales presentation. Like let’s take an example. XYZ builders, we do things right. We believe that, you know, no home is perfect, but we’re relentless about improving things. Which type am I speaking to right there? golly. What is it?

Is it a F a two? No, it’s the type one I do things right. We’re always seeking perfection. Know. Okay. So I’m going to go through each time and I’m gonna make it real easy cause it’s going to go one through nine. Yeah. Okay. You know, we’re sensitive to the customer’s needs. We realize that, gosh, families today have so many needs and we only show how we are caring, concern for the customer and to meet those needs.

Which type am I focusing on right there? The type two, right? The helper, the type three. Look, we have an award winning reputation. We have, this is the type of people that are living here. You know, we’re a little bit more expensive. This is a prestigious product. This is the top end. You know, type three. We do things different type.

This is, I mean, I’m speaking to the type four. Okay. each home is a unique creation. [00:53:00] It’s an outward expression. We’ve put a lot of emotion and thought into it. We’ve re thoroughly researched our product. Type five. Type six we have a team that you can count on. You know, we have a warrant and you know, and I want to, and I only say these things if they’re true, if I don’t have a great warranty, I’m not going to talk about it.

But hopefully you do. And then you want to talk about it cause that will resonate with the type six the team that you have. If your home, if you have an amazing experience in your home, which all of us should, is a brand new home. Talk about the experience that would resonate with type seven. AIDS are always trying to challenge the status quo, trying to, you know, disrupt and you know, they’re the game changer kind of people.

They’re the disruptors. So to a type eight I might say something like, look, there’s a lot of mediocrity in the home building industry. Our job is to challenge the status quo. And I’ll show you what we’re doing. You know, sometimes you’ve got to break some eggs to make an omelet and the, here’s what we’re doing, and then just talk about that.

Give them direct answers. Nine talking about the community, the peace, the serenity, the noise reduction capabilities. So let’s go back to the the sales rally talk. Okay? [00:54:00] At the end of my talk, I hit every type, and if you remember, I said, ladies, gentlemen, I want you to have a process. I want you to always be improving.

Matter of fact, I want you to shoot for perfection. I’m speaking to the type ones in the audience, but don’t lose the love that you have for this industry, for the your coworkers. For and most importantly for the customer. Now I’m directing it to the type two. Now I’ve talked to type three. I want you to have goals, goals that are so big that you’re almost embarrassed to share them with other people.

But now I’m speaking to the type four. Do not lose your true, authentic, beautiful self. You know, we want you to, we want to see exactly who you are. Type fives. I want you to research your product as though you’re studying for your master’s degree. That you’re, you know, trying to become a scientist. That’s the type five, but I’m number six.

But be a team player. Don’t hoard your secrets BS. [00:55:00] Be loyal to the group, to the team. Now I’m going to talk to this type to the safe seven infused joy into what you do. join happiness in, in, into what you do now, number eight. But don’t be afraid to take on hard things to take on. Big challenges. And then type nine, but above all, you know, be a person that brings other humans together.

Unfortunately, we live in a disconnected, dysfunctional, discorded world. Be a person that harmonizes, that brings humans together. Now, that was at the end of my talk and my goal was to unite and bring everybody together. you, you know, like there, Mary was actually at her talk her, the end point was I the, I am enough.

Do you remember that part? Yup. Yup. Now that would speak to type twos, threes and fours. I mean, it really speaks to all of us in a sense, but it’s not like the main driving force, but if you want to reach all of them, what you would do is say, I am enough. That’s for two threes and fours worried about their [00:56:00] identity.

Like am I loving enough? Am I successful in my unique, no, I’m enough. A good message for five, six and seven is there is enough. Like you’re, you’re gonna have a hard time selling a type five because they’re going to want to research it a little bit more. A six is, are going to bring one more family member in sevens are going to be like, well, is this enough?

What if there’s another one around the corner in the future? I don’t want to be trapped. No, no, no. There is enough. I’m five, six and sevens and then eight, nines and ones. They don’t struggle with either of those things as a whole. They struggle with, am I doing enough? So, AIDS. Nines and ones. Have I done enough?

You’ve done enough. So I am enough. There is enough and I’ve done enough. So if you want to hit the full spectrum, that’s how you would do it there. Let me also tell you a secret. I became very good at writing. Now I’m probably gonna get hit with people asking me to nominate them for stuff, but when I nominate people for like an award.

They win. I mean, I’ve, I did 40 under 40 I got a guy up 40 under 40 I got, [00:57:00] I’m the one to watch with Anya . She won gold. Michael Florida’s, he won gold for national sales rookie of the year. I’m silver for sales manager and I’m bragging, but let me tell you what I do. I don’t know who the men, I don’t know who the judges are and every judge has a different motivation.

Okay. So here’s what I do. Like for instance, a type three wants to know like, how many homes did you sell? Are you a top sales person or you’re a performer? A type four is not so much worried about that. They want to know, are you a real human being? Are you authentic? I’m a type one. Doesn’t care how many homes you can say, I sold 300 homes and a one is not impressed at all.

They want to know, do you do things right? Right? So in my nominating, like if I were nominating Mollie for something, I would say Mollie does things right? Here’s an example. Mollie is sensitive to the needs of other people and his caring human being. Here’s an example. Mollie sets a huge goals and hits them, and here’s her.

Her awards type for Mollie does things [00:58:00] different. Type five Mollie is constantly and relentlessly researching the product, but a type six one it doesn’t care about it. They wanna know, are you a team player? Are you loyal? Can you be counted on a type seven wants to know, look, is this a fun, you know, are you a person that, Makes it an amazing experience. Are you having fun? You know, that’s like even an endotype AIDS. Hey, are you taking on challenges? What are you, you know, and then type nines. Are you a peacemaker? So each one has a different motivation. So in my nominating, I will try to end full truth, not, I mean. Tell us how Mollie hits all nine points.

Does that make sense? I love it. It’s a great strategy and I love hearing about the rally and how you closed it, in a way that connects with everyone. I do have one question for you. Do you feel that sales professionals in our industry because of the nature of sales, tend to be one type over another?

Like I would think that we would have a lot of achievers in our [00:59:00] industry. Is that right? Yes. You will have a lot of achievers. You’ll have a go ahead. And then my second question is, it also would seem as though to have a healthy balance of people in your life. You really should have. Representation of all nine in your life.

Is that right? Well, yeah. And okay. For the sales rally talk, and the big concern with everybody was like, Quint Quint, you can’t wing this. Don’t try to wing this. You know what I mean? Like this is not amateur hour Quinn like moment because, because people look at me and like, I’m always smiling, always joking, but sevens.

Can be real. They can, they have a kind of a serious side to them. Right. but when I would go through each talk, I would ask specific people certain things and I would get feedback on the talk. For instance, I have a type one and they’re very critical type ones are like, they’ll find little nitpicky things.

Like, let those seem right. That doesn’t seem right, but they give great advice. [01:00:00] Great advice. my type four friends, I w I would express things to them and they would say like, Oh, you know what? Emotionally, this is what you’re communicating. They’re like super powers when it comes to the, the real emotional response to whatever it is.

type threes are outstanding about the group’s response. met the other podcasts you talked about Jason forest and how he, gave really good advice to me. And I trust a three. If a three says, look, the group is going to respond like this. They like, they can read a group like a supercomputer and know how to perform to the group.

It was little things like button your thing, get, you know, and you even talked to like get straight into the story. So each one has a different angle that they’re going to, a seven will listen to your speech at the end. They’re like, you know, that was not, that was kind of boring. Right. So you think other people’s speeches are boring?

No, no, no, no, no. But what the point is, is that if you want to get advice, like, how do I make my speech. More fun. You would talk to a [01:01:00] seven. If you say, how do I make it deeper research? You talk to a five if you want to know, like, is it done right? Is it, you know, a type one will pick apart. If you want to know the emotional response, you talk to a four if you don’t know what the group’s response is, talk to a three.

So I strategically would practice and get feedback from different angles of the group to see, you know, or whatever I needed advice for. So each one has a superpower and a kryptonite each one. you know, it reveals the strategy that we have going through life. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a fascinating study.

They really is fascinating. And I think, everyone who’s listening should be interested and we would love to hear from you as you, you know, listen to this. Which one you think you are. If you want to go ahead and, and take the assessment yourself, we would love to have a discussion on Facebook about it.

Quint, you are again, so passionate and it comes across, and I think a lot of people don’t, you know, you are so fun and you are such the [01:02:00] adventure, but you’re, you put, you put the work in and you put the thought in. And I think it shows just in how you study humans and human behavior. So if all of us could have a fraction of that, I think we would be better versions of ourselves.

Yeah, and back to like being a seven, like I hope I made it fun. I hope I made it exciting. That’s the cusp seven what they want to do. There’s some really good resources. and it depends on what, like there’s the Enneagram of parenting if you want that for parenting. there is, the Enneagram Institute is a great resource.

There, your Enneagram, coach Beth McCord has a good one. So it’s more of a spiritual aspect of it. She’s got some good programs even from marriage. gosh, who is the, it’s all the top of my head. All the links you want to share. I’ll give you some extra ones, but there’s some, there’s any Graham in business, booked up.

Gosh, what is her name anyway? But there’s a whole bunch. There’s a, people are realizing that, like back to the, the start with why. If you can start with why it will. [01:03:00] you know, revolutionize your whole business and everything, but what are the why’s? And that’s where the, any brand will give you a roadmap to understand the nine core motivations of other humans.

So use your powers for good, study it, have fun with it. And, I would love to have some feedback on the results. Oh, yeah, no, I agree. I, I think that this is a w I honestly, we could probably. Broken this down into like, almost like a two part series because you can, and maybe we’ll, we might have to have you back on to kind of go into it as well, you know, based on some of the feedback we get from listeners, I’m sure that people, on just will be fascinated by the different ways that you can utilize it.

And I think that you, you obviously can tell that you’ve spent, you mentioned that you spent, you’ve spent the last five years studying it and understanding it better. Which is why it’s led to your, you know, having such great success selling homes and, you know, just in general as a whole, being [01:04:00] a good human being.

I think that, you know, it’s, it’s always fascinating and can tell you just your passion for it just as so apparent. Coming through, coming through the the interwebs. It’s even so apparent of the, of the passion that you have for it. Matt, thank you. My pleasure. I just want to say you guys, I see a lot in our business, unfortunately, a lot of burnout and a lot of rust out and, and I think if we can, the Enneagram for me has just opened up a whole new chapter.

It’s infused like life and fun into my job and like people are just fascinating to me. So it’s almost like they come in. I’m no longer offended by like, you know, the type eight who comes in and wants to be in control. I just let them be in control. The type five who wants to constantly research my product, or the six who brings in another family member for  forcement it’s just given me, appreciation, understanding, empathy, and love for the customer.

It’s being my job more fun. It’s helped me in my marriage. My, I could tell you so many fun stories just about being a parent. So I encourage, you [01:05:00] know. I, I would encourage her by just to get into it and study it. Spend the time. It’s not easy. It’ll take some, some time, but it’s worth it. Yeah, no, it’s amazing.

And really appreciate it. It’s unbelievably insightful and packed with information. This is definitely one of those episodes where if you’re a, as most people listen to podcasts or driving down the road or running on the treadmill or do whatever it is that they’re doing that’s kind of active and they’re passively listening, they’re going to want to go back home or to their desk and jot down some notes, or better yet.

Chime into the Facebook group and ask Quint some questions on the Enneagram. So it’ll be, it’ll be really exciting to see, people interact with this. So really well done and really greatly appreciate you coming on and spending, spending your, your time with us today and sharing, sharing your knowledge.

We’re, we’re, we’re developing a website, Enneagram, coach.com and I will be. No building that out as well. So I was going to give you a personalized, thank you of saying thank you, quaint. You are so much fun. You [01:06:00] have so much energy, and we really appreciate you sharing with us today. Mollie, you’re the best.

I appreciate both of you very much. Thanks. Thanks. Go ahead. .

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